🇨🇳 安娜，你能听到我吗？好的，谢谢你们的邀请，很高兴见到大家。前两位发言的时候我网络断了几回，如果待会儿再断，我先道个歉——这我也没办法。贝尔纳给我们留下了一些任务，有些是他刻意留给我们的，有些是他没来得及完成而留给我们的；这些任务，我们得当成自己的事，用自己的方式去琢磨。今天我想谈的，就是他留给我们的其中一项任务。
🇬🇧 anna you can hear me um anna you can hear me um good thank you for the invitation and good thank you for the invitation and good thank you for the invitation and it's a pleasure to see you all i've had it's a pleasure to see you all i've had it's a pleasure to see you all i've had a few a few a few internet dropouts during the first two internet dropouts during the first two internet dropouts during the first two papers papers papers so if that happens i apologize so if that happens i apologize so if that happens i apologize but there's nothing i can do um but there's nothing i can do um but there's nothing i can do um bernard left us with some tasks bernard left us with some tasks bernard left us with some tasks tasks ones that he deliberately left us tasks ones that he deliberately left us tasks ones that he deliberately left us with and ones that he left us with by with and ones that he left us with by with and ones that he left us with by not having completed them and those not having completed them and those not having completed them and those tasks tasks tasks are ones that we have to adopt are ones that we have to adopt are ones that we have to adopt as our own and to figure out as our own and to figure out as our own and to figure out in our own way one of the ones in our own way one of the ones in our own way one of the ones that he left us is what i would like to that he left us is what i would like to that he left us is what i would like to talk about today talk about today
🇨🇳 我想谈的，是我们需要为理论计算机科学重新打下一个新基础——这事儿我其实懂得很少。所以我的问题是：这到底是什么意思？今年他发表的一篇文章里，在讨论一位学者（ukui）的工作时，提出了这个呼吁。那么，重新为理论计算机科学奠基，对我而言究竟意味着什么？显然，这不只是计算机科学内部的事。
🇬🇧 talk about today which is the idea that we need a new which is the idea that we need a new which is the idea that we need a new foundation foundation foundation for theoretical computer science for theoretical computer science for theoretical computer science something i know very little about so uh something i know very little about so uh something i know very little about so uh for me the question is what does this for me the question is what does this for me the question is what does this really mean i wonder if i can show you really mean i wonder if i can show you really mean i wonder if i can show you something yeah um he in an um he in an in an article that was published this in an article that was published this in an article that was published this year in angolaki year in angolaki year in angolaki he he put forward this call he he put forward this call he he put forward this call in a discussion with the work of ukui and i don't think that's gonna work and i don't think that's gonna work let's forget about that let's forget about that let's forget about that all right and all right and all right and uh the question is for me what does this the question is for me what does this mean to refound mean to refound mean to refound theoretical computer science um theoretical computer science um theoretical computer science um clearly it has something to do with clearly it has something to do with clearly it has something to do with fields outside of just fields outside of just
🇨🇳 他说的不只是计算机科学，那是一种形而上学意义上的“理论”——它想要统摄一切交换的交换法则，说白了，对新自由主义来说，它就像一匹特洛伊木马。这样一来，“信息”这个概念，也就成了过去七十年里种种演变的一匹特洛伊木马。这一点我一开始还有点犯迷糊，于是我给他写了封邮件。他在回信里写了一句很有意思的话：当乔治·屈罗甘提出，我们必须把熊彼特和洛特卡放在一起读。
🇬🇧 fields outside of just computer science what he means is computer science what he means is computer science what he means is something like something like something like that it's theoretical that it's theoretical that it's theoretical in a metaphysical sense that it tries to take over the law of exchange take over the law of exchange of all exchanges and that it's something of all exchanges and that it's something of all exchanges and that it's something like a trojan horse like a trojan horse like a trojan horse for neoliberalism in this way the for neoliberalism in this way the for neoliberalism in this way the concept of information concept of information concept of information becomes a trojan horse for for what will becomes a trojan horse for for what will becomes a trojan horse for for what will unfold unfold unfold over the past 70 years over the past 70 years over the past 70 years uh this was still a bit of a problem for uh this was still a bit of a problem for uh this was still a bit of a problem for me me me uh to understand and so i wrote him an uh to understand and so i wrote him an uh to understand and so i wrote him an email and in email and in email and in in a very interesting email that he in a very interesting email that he in a very interesting email that he wrote back wrote back wrote back he included this sentence he included this sentence he included this sentence when georges q rogan posits that we must when georges q rogan posits that we must when georges q rogan posits that we must read schumpeter
🇨🇳 把熊彼特和洛特卡放在一起读，意思是说，我们必须把“交换”这件事重新放回观察的核心——也就是经济的概念化和组织，而交换之所以必要，是因为外躯体（exosomatic）的生命形式使然。这跟贝尔纳讲的外躯体化有关。不过，这里的“交换”到底指什么？我们该怎么理解？它又跟信息或计算机科学有什么关系？
🇬🇧 read schumpeter read schumpeter with lotka this means that we must put with lotka this means that we must put with lotka this means that we must put back at the center of the observation back at the center of the observation back at the center of the observation conceptualization and organization of conceptualization and organization of conceptualization and organization of the economy the economy the economy the fact of exchange in as much as it is the fact of exchange in as much as it is the fact of exchange in as much as it is required by the exosomatic form of life required by the exosomatic form of life required by the exosomatic form of life there's a lot of things that we can there's a lot of things that we can there's a lot of things that we can understand in that sentence to do with understand in that sentence to do with understand in that sentence to do with his account of exorcimitization and so his account of exorcimitization and so his account of exorcimitization and so on that we heard on that we heard on that we heard through peter's uh introduction through peter's uh introduction through peter's uh introduction but what does it mean the fact of but what does it mean the fact of but what does it mean the fact of exchange here how should we understand exchange here how should we understand exchange here how should we understand this and what's it got to do with this and what's it got to do with this and what's it got to do with information or information or information or computer science
🇨🇳 那“把熊彼特和洛特卡一起读”又是什么意思呢？我觉得，我们得借贝尔纳谈过、却很少被讨论的一些想法来想这个问题，尤其是他跟人类学的关系。很遗憾，他没能写完《自动社会》第二卷，那本书本来会大篇幅讨论这些问题。另外我想说的是：今天世界上发生的一切，其实在1942到1950那几年里就已经定下了。
🇬🇧 and what does it mean to say that we and what does it mean to say that we must read schumpeter with lotka must read schumpeter with lotka must read schumpeter with lotka what i want to say and of course like what i want to say and of course like what i want to say and of course like gerald i'm going to run out of time as gerald i'm going to run out of time as gerald i'm going to run out of time as well well well is that we need to think about this through some we need to think about this through some things that bernard things that bernard things that bernard spoke about but don't get discussed spoke about but don't get discussed spoke about but don't get discussed that often and that's his relationship that often and that's his relationship that often and that's his relationship to to to anthropology it's a great pity that he anthropology it's a great pity that he anthropology it's a great pity that he never never never finished the second volume of automatic finished the second volume of automatic finished the second volume of automatic society which society which society which would have discussed these questions a would have discussed these questions a would have discussed these questions a lot i think lot i think lot i think so the other thing i would like to so the other thing i would like to so the other thing i would like to suggest suggest suggest is that everything that happens in the is that everything that happens in the is that everything that happens in the world is set out
🇨🇳 整个世界的走向，当时就定下来了；我们今天身处的这个意识形态网络，当时就定下来了；各种种子，也是当时种下的。正是通过回望那几年发生的事，我们才能把贝尔纳的呼吁再往前推。1942年，熊彼特出版了《资本主义、社会主义与民主》，他说，回答“资本主义能否存活”这个问题，答案恐怕是否定的，因为资本主义倾向于摧毁那些保护它自身所必需的社会制度。所以，按照贝尔纳的说法，当乔治·屈罗甘说我们要“把熊彼特和洛特卡一起读”时……
🇬🇧 world is set out world is set out in the years from 1942 to 1950. in the years from 1942 to 1950. in the years from 1942 to 1950. the whole world was decided then the the whole world was decided then the the whole world was decided then the ideological ideological ideological nexus that we live in was decided then nexus that we live in was decided then nexus that we live in was decided then the germs were were the germs were were the germs were were seeded then and it's through looking at seeded then and it's through looking at seeded then and it's through looking at what happened in those years what happened in those years what happened in those years that we can take bernard's call further schumpeter in 1942 schumpeter in 1942 publishes his book on capitalism publishes his book on capitalism publishes his book on capitalism and democracy and he says that and democracy and he says that and democracy and he says that in answer to the question can capitalism in answer to the question can capitalism in answer to the question can capitalism survive survive survive the answer is probably no the answer is probably no the answer is probably no because capitalism tends to destroy because capitalism tends to destroy because capitalism tends to destroy the social in institutions that are the the social in institutions that are the the social in institutions that are the condition condition condition of its own protection and so when according to bernard and so when according to bernard georgeski rogan says that we need to